is kde lighter than xfce

is kde lighter than xfce

is kde lighter than xfce

is kde lighter than xfce

  • is kde lighter than xfce

  • is kde lighter than xfce

    is kde lighter than xfce

    Some things have changed, but the fundamentals remain the same. XFCE offers you a lean and responsive front-end experience as a desktop environment, regardless of the host distribution. Test #2: MULTITASKING RAM Usage, Virtual Machine. KDE provides you with virtual desktops to prepare complete desktop suites dedicated to different purposes. I use Manjaro Xfce and there is no shortage of available software via the AUR repository. Plasma's RAM usage increases over time . Greetings. However, it can still keep the machine functional for primary use. In any case, very surprising revelations so far as I wasnt expecting KDE to be this lean! Here are answers to some frequent questions about CentOS Stream. But yes, folks, in much of my initial testing the latest version of KDE (5.17) is using less RAM than Xfce 4.14. KDE's aesthetically pleasing, productivity-friendly desktop layout, and customizable UI make it an enjoyable environment to work in. KDE takes stability seriously with its well-publicized, meticulously documented release logs, which detail its minutest improvements. Then I used htop to write down the overall RAM usage. Is XFCE better than Gnome? Indeed, with AUR, you can get all the software you need. Red Hat Enterprise Linux vs Ubuntu, what is suitable for you? KDE is Now Lighter than XFCE. Read More Upgrade Or Update Ubuntu Offline, Without InternetContinue. elementary OS Freya has been released today. And youd be absolutely right. All three are quite customizable but gnome is quite heavy on the system while xfce is the lightest out of the three. It is also more customizable than Xfce, but it uses a smaller amount of memory. Even though Xfce is favored more for resource-friendly distributions, KDE Plasma cannot be ignored. Please enter your email, so that we can personally thank you and further discuss it (if needed). LXDE looks more basic compared to Xfce. XFCE and whatever ships with LXDE really are crap. In a fresh boot, CPU usage is the same at around 1 percent, but LXDE uses a paltry 219 MB RAM, whereas XFCE uses 465 MB RAM. With an abundance of choice and talented developers across the board putting their blood, sweat and tears into advancing the Linux desktop, the takeaway is that with each passing month, Linux becomes an even product regardless of how mighty or meager your computer is. KDE is by far better than anything else (including any OS) in my opinion. Here are his system specs: And here are his results. Considering KDE as a desktop environment that offers a wide range of options, colors, themes, widgets, and more, you get to tweak numerous things to personalize your experience. KDE is by far better than anything else (including any OS) in my opinion. Eeeh it's about average, "lighter" than some "heavier" than others. However, if you just need to get some things done on your older computer, with a simple user interface, Xfce can be an impressive option. Xfce is a lightweight . Show me a KDE customization thats not just eye candy (like KDEs vast library of half-unreliable widgets versus XFCEs modest-but-still-awesome panel plugin collection) and chances are I can show you the XFCE equivalent. You can configure the View Mode to make folder trees coherent and maneuverable for your use. These results led me to ask a divisive question on Twitter: Could KDE steal the crown from Xfce in 2020? XFCE gives you a stable desktop experience, primarily due to its three-year LTS release cycle. Is KDE the best desktop environment? LXQt is a great lightweight desktop environment with excellent performance. Link leading to a dead page? Individual users have found this out and stuck with XFCE even on their new hardware. Although it misses a few features and its development is slower than Cinnamon's, MATE runs faster, uses less resources and is more stable than Cinnamon. KDE is Now Lighter than XFCE. In contrast, Xfce falls short on the offerings. For more information, please see our Xfce does provide a simple user interface. However, KDE can be a more suitable choice. Read this review to know why I say so. The login page will open in a new tab. But yes, folks, in much of my initial testing the latest version of KDE (5.17) is using less RAM than Xfce 4.14. As for XFCE, I found it too unpolished and more simple than it should. LXDE uses just 219 MB of RAM, while XFCE uses 465 MB. Is KDE more lightweight than GNOME? However, in general, Xfce is considered to be a lighter and faster desktop environment than KDE. Youll find a number of K apps such as KDE Connect, Kdenlive, Konsole, etc. Readers like you help support MUO. Applications like Konqueror are super fast, faster than any file browser I've seen in Gnome, and at least comparable to XFCE. Is KDE really lighter than XFCE? . They have their own mail program, key storage, software library and so on, even their own compositor. Being an open-source community-driven OS, Linux offers numerous desktops that appeal to your various computing tastes and priorities. You can customize Xfce to look very much like Windows 10, if you so desire. One of the best desktop environments to use is Xfce. But yes, folks, in much of my initial testing the latest version of KDE (5.17) is using less RAM than Xfce 4.14. What desktop environment does Ubuntu use? Part of the article contains outdated steps or commands? So, if you want customizability of essential parts of the distro but still want to keep things simple, Xfce can be the right choice. XFCE is minimalistic, lightweight, stable, modular, and highly configurable. Is XFCE lighter than KDE? KDE Plasma should be an easy pick for most looking for a modern user experience with customizability. You can now achieve 425MB on SolydK by running KDE 4.11.1 and keeping your DE under 100MB . Is Xfce lighter than KDE? But yes, folks, in much of my initial testing the latest version of KDE (5.17) is using less RAM than Xfce 4.14. In other words, you will find a similar layout with a start menu (app menu) and navigate your way around through that in KDE. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. So which Linux desktop should you go for? XFCE has simple but intuitive desktop workspaces that help you get around disparate desktop layouts tailored for different workflows. You will usually see cats dancing to the beautiful tunes sung by him. You can further assign custom keyboard combinations from the window manager to make workspace-switching more accessible. When you make a purchase using links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission. If you are curious about whats new in Freya, I am going to show you some of the new features in elementary OS Freya and a quick, Read More Elementary OS Freya Review Of New FeaturesContinue. There has been several changes between the previous version Luna and upcoming Freya. Let me know your thoughts in the comments below. KDE Plasma utilizes Kickoff (applications menu) launcher to help you get to your favorite apps in no time. KDE is Now Lighter than XFCE. When I say Xfce, its a good bet you think about a lean, responsive Linux desktop environment thats particularly light on system memory usage. Elementary OS Freya Review Of New Features, Meet DebianDog Puppy sized Debian Linux, Everything You Need to Know About CentOS Stream, Upgrade Or Update Ubuntu Offline, Without Internet. That said, this is far from a scientific evaluation as Im not tracking what process every scrap of memory is being devoted to. I will take note of it for the next update of this article. Your sharp observation skill and intellect have identified a potential issue with this article. KDE is one of the most popular desktop environments out there. MATE. XFCE and KDE rank well against each other. Test #1: IDLE RAM Usage, VM Versus Natively Installed. After seeing a couple stray comments on Twitter making this very claim, I felt. To help you pick a suitable desktop environment, we will be comparing some of the most common aspects of a desktop environment. The ability to pick and choose widgets, themes, and applications allows you to ease up on the resources while keeping what you need. That being said, it can be overwhelming for beginners. Both are lightweight but have their own distinct advantages. While Xfce is still favored more for some of the best lightweight Linux distributions, KDE Plasma is not a resource-heavy desktop either. But, it is something to note on paper. Cookie Notice By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. [deleted] 1 yr. ago After that, I captured the current RAM usage using htop. If that doesn't convince you, there have been numerous reports in the past like Jason's that have mentioned KDE as the lighter desktop environment over XFCE as well. These shortcuts use a functional application launching dock to launch some optional widgets. The KDE Plasma Desktop is one of the lightest desktop environments. Related: The Best KDE-Based Distros for Avid Linux Users. Its modular component customizations can help you set up a desktop suitable for multitasking performance. A passionate technophile who also happens to be a Computer Science graduate. DebianDog is a Linux project that aims to create small live CDs for Debian and Debian-based systems to serve mostly older Linux systems. You can use it for basic home computing, eLearning, entertainment, surfing, and office productivity. For example, I tried comparing Kubuntu vs. Xubuntu to check the resource usage. I am a debian kde user, but I think that although kde uses less ram memory, xfce is even more stable, and in the linux scoop videos I have seen very advanced customizations in xfce. KDE was so optimized and modernized that it's beating XFCE in matters of desktop experience, performance and versatiliy. These two environments have grown through the previous years and each of these desktops continued to expand their current user-base. Next I wanted to see how each distro measured up in a virtual machine under some light multitasking. KDE has a lot more software as part of the DE. So, you can try exploring both of them if you are not sure about it. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. and our In CPU usage, generally Plasma is a little more demanding. I have already tried out this beautiful Linux distribution. Im as surprised about writing this article as you are at reading that headline. After seeing a couple stray comments on Twitter making this very claim, I felt compelled to see if there was any substance to it. And the differences here are practically margin of error territory. Read More Red Hat Enterprise Linux vs Ubuntu: Whats the Difference?Continue. GNOME shows 6.7% of CPU used by the user, 2.5 by the system and 799 MB ram while below Xfce shows 5.2% for CPU by the user, 1.4 by the system and 576 MB ram. As highlighted before, XFCE allows you to pick and choose components on your use case basis. You should get a snappy experience with both the desktop environments on older computers. Xfce is pretty standard with lightweight Linux distributions as the primary offering, such as Linux Lite. Perhaps thats partly why MX Linux is the most downloaded distro (DistroWatch) right now which uses XFCE as the flagship DE. Table of Contents. Suppose you do not worry much about the stability but want to keep up with the modern standards. Or any other issue with the website elements? Over many years, many people spent a long time with Linux desktop using either KDE or GNOME. Does that same description dance through your head when I say KDE? If not, one can hardly blame you. KDE is Now Lighter than XFCE. If you've ever used a version of GNOME from before 2011, then you've essentially used MATE. Most of the popular offerings feature GNOME as the default (or the only) desktop environment. XFCE makes desktop navigation easier by assigning custom critical combinations to desktop, window operations, and even applications. Is Trinity lighter than Xfce? The environment is hardware friendly and works well on low-end system configurations without compromising the quality and delivery of user experiences. What would you prefer between the two desktop environments? It is easy, lightweight, and fast. However, if you dislike frequent changes/updates to the desktop environment, Xfce should be a better option. Both KDE Plasma and Xfce are tailored to provide the most comfortable Windows-like experience in a Linux distribution. Xfce may not be customizable, but it offers all the useful tweaks, including adding a launcher, customizing the taskbar, etc. Here are the results: What immediately jumps out is that KDE Neon using the latest version of the KDE Plasma desktop uses the least amount of RAM inside a virtual machine, and comes within spitting distance of Xubuntu 19.10 on the native installation. As far as these two desktop contenders are concerned, they are neck and neck in the race. You can find KDE and Xfce editions for the most popular Linux distributions, including Ubuntu flavors, Manjaro, Linux Mint, and more. It has been in the game for over 25 years and offers you more reliability for periodic and stable releases. However, Xfce manages to offer the essentials without adding bloat to your system. And, whats best? KDE NEON + File Manager, Terminal and Firefox. Both use the Qt library instead of GTK+, making them the lighter of the two. Yes, it looks like KDE has managed to beat XFCE as one of the lightest . The primary difference between LXQt and Xfce is that LXQt uses Qt rather than GTK+. Even though it's not my primary choice, it is highly customizable and extremely lightweight. Customizations can be in terms of the UI/UX of the desktop environment, the available tooling, file management, and much more. Here are those results: Again, this a close race and is by no means scientific, but in this particular test KDE Neon walked away using the least amount of RAM. Privacy Policy. Xfce is a program that can be used to run Linux on old computers. In case you are exploring some of the best desktop environments for the first time, you might want to know the differences between KDE Plasma and GNOME as well. KDE and Xfce aim to provide the most stable experience possible. You need to install Orca Screen Reader before accessing the feature from KDE Plasmas settings. However, Xfce has evolved over the years to provide elementary-OS-like visuals out of the box. But yes, folks, in much of my initial testing the latest version of KDE (5.17) is using less RAM than Xfce 4.14. Regarding customizability, I agree, more than enough options exist to personalize the experience. LXQt and LXDE are lighter than Xfce, but that's only one part of the story. Is KDE Lighter Than XFCE? These are available on desktops and tactile smart devices. So what are the best use cases for both? Dear Holmes, help your Watson (that's us) by explaining the details. You can expect UI/UX improvements specific to applications within the software repository. Here are the Linux distros I used for this round of testing: I installed each distro inside a virtual machine using GNOME Boxes, allotted 4GB of RAM, and set each display to 1920 x 1080. I believe you'll find that XFCE is frequently high on the li. This helps supports the channel and allows us to continue to make videos like this. XFCE is minimalistic, lightweight, stable, modular, and highly configurable. Of course, the Xfce development team is smaller than KDEs, which is also a reason for fewer releases. On the contrary, they improve the performance of the native applications as well. However, for simplicity, we tend to use KDE instead of Plasma in some cases. It also doesnt offers a software center. It's worth it to try KDE Plasma rather than GNOME. XFCE and KDE are neck and neck in terms of customizability, resource consumption, and user experience. Available Distributions: GNOME vs KDE. Follow this author to stay notified about their latest stories. However, if you are using a more resource-intensive version of Xfce, such as the Xfce 4.10 release, then it may be heavier than Cinnamon. Should I use a desktop environment or not? Is KDE lighter than XFCE? No hitting the start button to search for programs, just barely configurable, built on a suite of mostly primitive applications (Dolphin and Kate blow them all out of the water), etc. Eye candy aside, I think it is more fair to say that XFCE is highly customizable. GNOME is great for your OS X convert who isn't used to anything being customizable, but KDE is an utter delight for everyone else. In general, KDE-powered distributions are more popular. Is KDE Plasma better? KDE is Now Lighter than XFCE. Perhaps that is due to the unique leanness of XFCE being written in C as well as its release cycle while KDE is primarily written in C++ like Windows among other things. It's lighter and faster than GNOME by a fair margin, and it's far more customizable. Is Mate lighter than XFCE? A standard KDE 4 Kubuntu 14.04 takes about 230MB RAM on a cold startup, and there's not much that would be faster in a more recent DE. You can attribute KDEs idle RAM usage (around 726MB) to its aesthetic-heavy features. Which is better KDE or XFCE? My colleague Zeb ran similar tests after installing a handful of distributions on his custom-built AMD PC, but he put Arch Linux (with Xfce) and Ubuntu 19.10 into the equation. The Konqueror file manager further helps you with file management. Similar to XFCE, KDE doesn't bog your system down by using a lot of resources. Please provide as much detail as you can. Periodic updates are also provided in the interim to keep you updated with the latest innovations in the environment. Honestly? The Best KDE-Based Distros for Avid Linux Users, Why KDE Is a Better Linux Desktop Than GNOME, Why You Should Try the Lightweight Xfce Desktop. With enough effort, Xfce can feel like a more modern desktop environment. Whatever the RAM usage, XFCE for me is unusable. A desktop environment needs to enhance accessibility for physically challenged users. I periodically test the latest KDE/Plasma on various new hardware configurations (as I want to use it for the eye candy) and always go back to XFCE due to eventual freezing and slowness I never encounter with XFCE. Related: Why KDE Is a Better Linux Desktop Than GNOME. When it comes to the desktop environment, KDE and XFCE are the top contenders in the lightweight category. This is a huge deal for those users with very limited RAM. Also, XFCE is still significantly more stable than KDE/Plasma for daily work despite dramatic improvements in recent years. Which Linux distros use GNOME? Is it a grammatical mistake or a simple typo? KDE Plasma and Xfce are two popular desktop environment options for lightweight Linux distributions. Fortunately, you also have KDE Plasma LTS versions if you do not want the latest features always. Xfce is the defaultdesktop environment for most Linux distributions. I aimed to focus on available defaults, where KDEs Discover does a better job than XFCE. KDE Plasma is best known for its customizability. Thanks for sharing your insights! You can expect minor crashes in bundled applications; alternatively, you also get better rendering UI elements, optimized memory usage, and layout changes for boosting productivity with subsequent updates. It's lighter and faster than GNOME by a fair margin, and it's far more customizable. KDE Plasma and Xfce are two popular desktop environment options for lightweight Linux distributions. Read More Meet DebianDog Puppy sized Debian LinuxContinue. We have over 1500 articles in the last ten years. Thank you, Ankush, for the good article! Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own. Both desktop environments have different features, but KDE is more customizable than Xfce, while Xfce excels on less powerful systems. This initial testing certainly demands further exploration on a wide range of hardware and scenarios, but the answer is clear: we, the users, win. As for XFCE, I found it too unpolished and more simple than it should. KDE is Now Lighter than XFCE? XFCE uses the GTK toolkit and continues to be an independent alternative to the GTK-built GNOME environment. There are not as many X apps. Here's a detailed comparison to help you decide whether to use KDE or XFCE as your next Linux desktop. In that case, KDE Plasma will be a better candidate in terms of faster development activity while introducing user-requested changes regularly. Sorry, this post was deleted by the person who originally posted it. You are likely be using the good old Synaptic Package Manager. That happens from time to time. Both use the Qt library instead of GTK+, making them the lighter of the two. While KDE Plasmas development activity always manages to grab the spotlight, the frequent updates may introduce bugs/issues for some users. Some button not working? Thank you for the article. You can use it for basic home computing, eLearning, entertainment, surfing, and office productivity. But, it is still a good reason for stability without breaking many of the functionalities in Linux distributions. Is KDE heavier than XFCE? My preconceived notions led me to believe Id see north of 1GB RAM being consumed by KDE Neon. KDE is around the same RAM usage of XFCE, especially when you factor in the extra applications you would need for basic functionality in XFCE (Bluetooth --> Blueman, Wi-Fi --> Network Manager Applet, Clipboard --> Parcellite). XFCE feels more electric and less steam-powered, with the full scope of its hardware support. I tried KDE a few times but always went back to Xfce for simplicity, efficiency, stability, being user-friendly and VERY customizable to suit individual taste. Red Hat Enterprise Linux vs Ubuntu: Whats the Difference? Is KDE more lightweight than XFCE? KDEs new Wayland protocol will fetch the latest advancements and enhancements for a more functional computing experience. LXDE vs. XFCE System Resource Efficiency This is where I really begin to see the differences between these two systems. Read More Garuda Linux Provides a Hassle-free Arch Experience With a Beautiful Neon Look [Review with Video]Continue. To expedite your workflows, XFCE utilizes nifty keyboard shortcuts. After logging in you can close it and return to this page. Cinnamon is primarily developed for and by Linux Mint. Both KDE and XFCE come loaded with features that distinguish them from the rest of the desktops within the Linux gamut. So I set up a couple test environments and recruited my podcasting colleague Zebedee Boss (of Destination Linux) to run independent tests of his own. I write about Steam Deck, open source software, and desktop Linux. What is the best desktop environment for Linux? While Xfce is still favored more for some of the best lightweight Linux distributions, KDE Plasma is not a resource-heavy desktop either. But, it could be too bland for users coming from macOS or Windows. ryukusu. I must agree with most of what you said, comparing the two desktops. While both the desktop environments offer insufficient accessibility support compared to GNOME, KDE can be an easier option to work with instead of Xfce. It is fast, elegant, and handles various enterprise computing tasks relatively quickly. If you prefer GTK+, you're better off using Xfce. Also, XFCE is vastly more customizable than Windows in terms features that impact productivity. Here, we compare the Plasma desktop with Xfce. Please log in again. There are no exact schedules for Xfce upgrades, but you will likely find them once in two-three years or longer. Clearly the KDE Plasma developers have put recent effort into optimizations, perhaps as a result of their work on the KDE Neon spin for Pine64s original PineBook? Xfce, on the other hand, is more minimalist and lightweight. KDE can be a more modern experience vs. Xfce, but none of them should disappoint you. You can also refer to our guide to explore customization tips if you are a new KDE Plasma user. For example, sleeper desktop environment has been XFCE as XFCE offers more robustness than LXDE that lacks much of XFCE . Want to update Ubutnu but dont have internet connection? Is there an issue with the UI and UX of the website? I'm going to start testing manjaro xfce, that is, the latest packages on an xfce desktop to test that desktop stability. Having said this, it has veritably less RAM usage than KDE plasma, using only 531MB idly, regardless of VM execution or native installation. XFCE uses reusable components so that you can pick and choose what you need to drive stable performance on your existing hardware. You can customize and add multiple panels to your desktop to quickly launch programs and reach files/folders for separate use-cases. Fedora, Ubuntu, and Pop!_OS are popular . It appears that the memory usage is about the same. When I say "Xfce," it's a good bet you think about a lean, responsive Linux desktop environment that's particularly light on system memory usage. Which is better KDE or XFCE? If you want a lightweight desktop environment, then look no further beyond XFCEs modular build and Unix foundation. The difference is smaller than in the previous example but Xfce retains performance superiority. This is a difficult question to answer definitively because there are a number of factors to consider, including hardware capabilities and user preferences. I think it has a strong chance of doing so, and Xfce Core developer Sean Davis agrees with me: Xfce Core developer (and great human) Sean Davis, (Its disheartening to learn that the Xfce is stretched thin and lacks the resources it deserves, but thats another topic for another time.). KDE is Now Lighter than XFCE. Many Arch-based Linux distributions have mushroomed lately. All three are quite customizable but gnome is quite heavy on the system while xfce is the lightest out of the three. It should not be a big deal. It has a reputation for being buggy and I did find that. For example, if you are using a lightweight version of Xfce, then it will generally be lighter than Cinnamon. Is KDE lighter than XFCE? You may also refer it as the "Plasma" desktop. CC-by-SA | It's FOSS is part of CHMOD777 Media Tech Pvt Ltd. Garuda Linux Provides a Hassle-free Arch Experience With a Beautiful Neon Look [Review with Video]. Idle RAM Usage: Virtual Machine vs Native Install. Related: Why You Should Try the Lightweight Xfce Desktop. Nonetheless, you will notice some stark similarities and dissimilarities between the two desktops, as well. I fully updated each VM image, rebooted, and then let the machine sit idle for 3 minutes. The best optimization works with Ubuntu and I personally recommend Kubuntu to be installed, avoiding a lot of Gnome bloatware. Through this guide, the idea is to compare the two famous desktop environments: XFCE and KDE. KDE uses components of Qt in tandem with GTK for a better desktop experience, however. It's possible that we were not clear on the topic. Sorry, this post was deleted by the person who originally posted it. You can invoke animated desktop switches with convenient keyboard combinations. Take something like Lmde as one of the lightest, install all sorts of programs into it. Note:KDEis the entire community of people working on various projects under its umbrella. You get the option to enable the screen reader, customize mouse navigation, apply keyboard filters, and more. And, the desktop environment isPlasma. It's not unstable or unusably bad, more a case of consistent small irritations. It should help you choose the ideal desktop for your system. It uses less than 1% of the CPU and 340 MB of RAM. If agile performance is what you are after, you might be biased about XFCE. Have questions around the new CentOS Stream? If you hold that belief, Im here to tell you its time to change your opinion. So I loaded up Firefox with two tabs open playing the same content, as well as each desktop environments native File Manager and terminal app. Is there some incorrect technical information? r/kde - KDE is Now Lighter than XFCE. This is the desktop I recommend to newbies coming from Windows. Unity is a graphical shell for the GNOME desktop environment originally developed by Canonical Ltd. for its Ubuntu operating system, and now being developed by the Unity7 Maintainers (Unity7) and UBports (Unity8/Lomiri). The frequent releases are an admirable perk since XFCEs community and support contribution is not as per KDEs scale. LXDE is better for those with limited RAM, such as users of older laptops with just 2 or 4 GB of RAM. XFCE vs LXQt - Lightweight Linux Desktop Environments Watch on Contents [ show] Which desktop environment is better in Linux? With Xfce, we have less clarity on what to do with a screen reader, except you have a simple option to enable screen readers and magnifiers with a single click. Gaurav Siyal has two years of writing experience, writing for a series of digital marketing firms and software lifecycle documents. 6 Reply bwat47 4 yr. ago I don't really understand where KDE got this reputation KDEs connectivity with mobile devices, rich software repo, and increasing compatibility for low-spec devices make it a versatile solution for medium to low-end systems. Thank you for your support! A lot of these improvements aren't restricted to simply improving the desktop user experience. Answer (1 of 2): OK I don't have actual numbers to give you, but if you search Google or other search engines for your question you will find that both XFCE and Mate come up on almost any list of lightweight linux desktop environments. XFCE defines productivity and performance with its bare minimalism. If you want the option to explore various applications tailored for your desktop environment, KDE should offer a better app ecosystem overall. The one that is promising in this crowd is Garuda Linux. However, I get the impression that you may have tried Xfce a couple of years ago and not looked again. 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